Oude Granny wanted to post the entirety of Mark Zalewski's (Cyclingnews.com) story created from excerpts he pulled from Greg Lemond's interview on ESPN 2's Cold Pizza. Lemond has at times come off whiny when it comes to Armstrong's success, but he certainly isn't alone in his thoughts (Granny included). This will also kick off a series of post in which Oude Granny will examine doping in the sport of cycling.
Lemond comments on Landis win
by Mark Zalewski, North American Editor
The American media have been desperately flipping through their Rolodexes to find expert analysis on the Tour win by Floyd Landis. ESPN's Cold Pizza tracked down the first American Tour winner, Greg Lemond, while he was vacationing with his family. When asked if the number of wins by Americans in the last twenty years is a trend, Lemond replied, "It's pure coincidence. We just had some talented individuals come into racing. But what Floyd did was amazing."
Lemond was also asked why it seems that the Americans that win seem to have to overcome great hurdles, with Lemond's hunting accident, Armstrong's cancer and now Landis' hip, "I think anybody who has had a setback... it shows your character," Lemond said. Lemond is also confident that Landis will be able to come back from his upcoming surgery, citing a colleague who had a hip replacement using a new technique, "He has the physiology to be a Tour de France winner, he did it, and I think he will win many more. I am optimistic he will be able to defend his title next year."
Lemond has certainly not hidden his feelings on Armstrong, and when asked who would win today between Landis, him and Armstrong, Lemond at first chuckled, "I am biased! I can't answer that, [laughs.]" But then Lemond got a little more serious. "Every race is different. The race changed dramatically this year. For me I am a strong anti-doping advocate. I think we are seeing a true Tour de France winner, someone who might have otherwise been cheated out of a win."
When asked if he was saying Lance's wins were tainted, Lemond said, "I am not saying that. It goes back to the historical norms, where people got tired and had bad days. It was common to have a bad day when I was racing. I have been waiting for this period since 1998… The French riders are competitive since 1998. They have a much harder dope testing in their country. Watching a race that shows the human drama. I believe you can do the TdF without drugs, you get tired, and the strongest win."
Tuesday, July 25, 2006
Another Jab?
Oude Granny wanted to post the entirety of Mark Zalewski's (Cyclingnews.com) story created from excerpts he pulled from Greg Lemond's interview on ESPN 2's Cold Pizza. Lemond has at times come off whiny when it comes to Armstrong's success, but he certainly isn't alone in his thoughts (Granny included). This will also kick off a series of post in which Oude Granny will examine doping in the sport of cycling.
Lemond comments on Landis win
by Mark Zalewski, North American Editor
The American media have been desperately flipping through their Rolodexes to find expert analysis on the Tour win by Floyd Landis. ESPN's Cold Pizza tracked down the first American Tour winner, Greg Lemond, while he was vacationing with his family. When asked if the number of wins by Americans in the last twenty years is a trend, Lemond replied, "It's pure coincidence. We just had some talented individuals come into racing. But what Floyd did was amazing."
Lemond was also asked why it seems that the Americans that win seem to have to overcome great hurdles, with Lemond's hunting accident, Armstrong's cancer and now Landis' hip, "I think anybody who has had a setback... it shows your character," Lemond said. Lemond is also confident that Landis will be able to come back from his upcoming surgery, citing a colleague who had a hip replacement using a new technique, "He has the physiology to be a Tour de France winner, he did it, and I think he will win many more. I am optimistic he will be able to defend his title next year."
Lemond has certainly not hidden his feelings on Armstrong, and when asked who would win today between Landis, him and Armstrong, Lemond at first chuckled, "I am biased! I can't answer that, [laughs.]" But then Lemond got a little more serious. "Every race is different. The race changed dramatically this year. For me I am a strong anti-doping advocate. I think we are seeing a true Tour de France winner, someone who might have otherwise been cheated out of a win."
When asked if he was saying Lance's wins were tainted, Lemond said, "I am not saying that. It goes back to the historical norms, where people got tired and had bad days. It was common to have a bad day when I was racing. I have been waiting for this period since 1998… The French riders are competitive since 1998. They have a much harder dope testing in their country. Watching a race that shows the human drama. I believe you can do the TdF without drugs, you get tired, and the strongest win."
Lemond comments on Landis win
by Mark Zalewski, North American Editor
The American media have been desperately flipping through their Rolodexes to find expert analysis on the Tour win by Floyd Landis. ESPN's Cold Pizza tracked down the first American Tour winner, Greg Lemond, while he was vacationing with his family. When asked if the number of wins by Americans in the last twenty years is a trend, Lemond replied, "It's pure coincidence. We just had some talented individuals come into racing. But what Floyd did was amazing."
Lemond was also asked why it seems that the Americans that win seem to have to overcome great hurdles, with Lemond's hunting accident, Armstrong's cancer and now Landis' hip, "I think anybody who has had a setback... it shows your character," Lemond said. Lemond is also confident that Landis will be able to come back from his upcoming surgery, citing a colleague who had a hip replacement using a new technique, "He has the physiology to be a Tour de France winner, he did it, and I think he will win many more. I am optimistic he will be able to defend his title next year."
Lemond has certainly not hidden his feelings on Armstrong, and when asked who would win today between Landis, him and Armstrong, Lemond at first chuckled, "I am biased! I can't answer that, [laughs.]" But then Lemond got a little more serious. "Every race is different. The race changed dramatically this year. For me I am a strong anti-doping advocate. I think we are seeing a true Tour de France winner, someone who might have otherwise been cheated out of a win."
When asked if he was saying Lance's wins were tainted, Lemond said, "I am not saying that. It goes back to the historical norms, where people got tired and had bad days. It was common to have a bad day when I was racing. I have been waiting for this period since 1998… The French riders are competitive since 1998. They have a much harder dope testing in their country. Watching a race that shows the human drama. I believe you can do the TdF without drugs, you get tired, and the strongest win."
9 comments:
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53rd Tooth said...
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Lemond's comments are contradictive in my opinion.
How do you explain icing the field with a 7+ min gain in one day over the Alps after cracking the day previous? Where are the historical norms for that?
From a fitness perspective, Landis was forced to recruit muscle fiber for energy when bonking thus causing the need for significant recovery and repair the days following.
Lance DID have bad days and plenty of them. He also had, arguably the greatest team in Tour history with TTT's that made big gains. Which by the way would have changed have changed this Tour tremendously in favor of T-Mobile in my opinion.
Bottom line, is that yes the Tour can be won clean if EVERYONE is clean but we'll never know that now will we?? -
1:33 PM
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Granny's 30 said...
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I guess that's where we'll disagree Tooth, cause I can't recall MANY a bad day that LA had in the TdF. If you breakdown his 7 Tours, each 21 days, or 147 days in total, I can only recall 2 days in which he had a "bad" day (his ride up the Col de Joux Plane in 2000, where he bonked, and his severe dehydration where he lost a minute to Jan Ullrich in a ITT in 2003). And even on those "bad" days he finished second in the ITT and lost only 2 minutes on the finish on the Joux Plane. Physiologically, those efforts for a "bonking" person are pretty remarkable?
Not saying it's impossible, but maybe improbable.
In regard to Landis losing so much time and then recovering the next day...I don't think he bonked in the physiological terms with which we would associate. He stated afterwards that he didn't feel well the entire day. His rivals never tested him until the final climb, where it became obvious that he was riding like crap. Like LA, Landis had the poker face on. Imagine how far he would've been behind had they attacked earlier.
So when someone has a "bad" day and it isn't a true bonk, how much does the body use up and can it recover and post a better effort the next day. I say it can happen, LA recovered from his, so why couldn't Landis? I've recovered from shitty efforts or races and done better the next day.
Now that said, I think the only reasons Landis gained so much time was because of the energy his rivals expended the days earlier and the trepidation in their minds to follow his attack so early. How many people would say, let's let the crazy MF go, who's gonna attack on the first of 5 climbs...he'll come back to us. I would have, afterall who and how many front runners, besides a Prefontaine, ever had enough balls to run in front all day long (epecially for 5 hours plus)? Heck you and Zip even had enough sense to let the gruppo catch back up before gearing it back up again. -
2:43 PM
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Ride on Rider said...
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thanks Oude G - series should be very interesting
what's always bothered me (and why I think they're all juiced a little) is that it's never really reported what kind of medical training & recovery treatments they do get - (breathing into a tube in a wind tunnel doesn't tell the story at all as I'd like to know what goes on in motor home, on the massage table and in the hotel room ...)
it's as though they're afraid of the truth because it puts all of them in the gray area of legal vs doping ... (or beyond) ... ie needles, fluids, pills, etc (legal or other) -
2:49 PM
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Unknown said...
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Lemond = Whiny. He's jealous of OBL's financial success.
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5:21 PM
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Granny's 30 said...
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I think its more than his financial sucess...i think Lemond feels slighted by the public at large. There are many more cyclists on the road simply because of LA, his story and his success. And because of his story, many see him as the only American cycling success. Many fans are LA fans and not fans of cycling in general and therefore don't get into the history.
Need proof, you need only look at the TV drop of this year's Tdf by the American public...down 52%. Lance fans not cycling fans. -
5:52 PM
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Unknown said...
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Well, maybe Lance is feeling now what Lemond has been feeling. He's yesterday's news. Floyd is today's story -- and he's a good one. Lemond, Armstrong, now Landis -- they're all important in the history of American cycling. But Floyd is still writing his story.
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6:59 PM
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53rd Tooth said...
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Granny, I am only recounting the numerous times Lance reported suffering i.e. when Heras was pulling away from him, he claimed he suffered the entire 03 Tour, the Doctor outside the bus telling us that Lance had a stomach virus, hip out of alignment, etc.
I might be wrong but I thought that Landis first pushed off from questions about eating enough and he wrote it off to just a "bad day" later to then say he didn't eat enough? Are you actually going to tell me that a man who has wattage of his farts measured doens't know how to fuel? Bullshit.
You don't think losing 10 minutes is bonking? It's Bonk with a capital B. He cracked and cracked hard. He could barely turn the crank. A shitty race is one thing, to be cracking that hard and icing the field the next day is well, "extraterestial" (sp) to quote someone we all hate.
Nothing pains me more than to have to be a skeptic particularily of someone who's from a town 30 miles from me.
I was however a staunch supporter of Tyler's and vowed that there was no way that he could make the incredulous statements about endangering his wife, etc. Well, we all know where we landed on that deal.
Rider said it best, we simply don't know. It's the skunkworks through and through.
I do however agree with your and 03's contention on American cyclists. Regardless of what comes out or will never come out, the history will never change. And as of right now, that history is still being written. Clean or dirty, it's inked. -
8:07 PM
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Granny's 30 said...
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Tooth, I think you made my point about LA...he bonked greatly twice and suffered (from his accounting) immeasurably yet in each instance he didn't lose significant time and recovered perfectly for the following day's stage (even winning many of those).
As far as Floyd, I'm not suggesting that he didn't crack. But what I suggested is that he was having a bad day from the start, so would you call it a "bonk" if he was attacked early on and lost say like 30-40 minutes rather than the ten he ultimately lost. Believe me when I say I know what bonking feels like...you feel good then you don't. So what would you call it if you didn't feel well at the start and it only materialized when you were put under effort? I'm not sure. I'd think maybe there was something else at play and therefore would offer a plausible explanation as to why he recovered the way he did.
I agree with all in that we'll never know who did or who didn't. I love baseball, a sport by which numbers are sacred, and now everything has been tainted. The only respectful thing about cycling is that governments and world agencies are trying to clean it up. But like everyone says, the science to catch the cheat is really behind the science that's being developed to cheat (sadly it always has been as I can recount numerous female Eastern Block athletes who frankly looked male) -
10:49 PM
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53rd Tooth said...
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Nice first entry Newbie.
The long and short is that at the end of the day Floyd has shown that he is a leader through and through. There is simply no questioning his mental fortitude and seemingly endless threshold for pain. Knowing these tough Mennonites as well as we do, we know that are cut from a very unique cloth.
I promise I'm done lamenting about the most recent doping scandal. As I've shared with Newbie, this time it was somewhat personal for me as I have, for the first time, lost faith in the entire system and some athletes I admired very much. Like all things, it's life and we move on.
Here's to the great sport that we all participate and here's to the great network of comrades it creates!
Stay pumped,
Tooth
(well you know what I mean) -
11:17 PM
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9 comments:
Lemond's comments are contradictive in my opinion.
How do you explain icing the field with a 7+ min gain in one day over the Alps after cracking the day previous? Where are the historical norms for that?
From a fitness perspective, Landis was forced to recruit muscle fiber for energy when bonking thus causing the need for significant recovery and repair the days following.
Lance DID have bad days and plenty of them. He also had, arguably the greatest team in Tour history with TTT's that made big gains. Which by the way would have changed have changed this Tour tremendously in favor of T-Mobile in my opinion.
Bottom line, is that yes the Tour can be won clean if EVERYONE is clean but we'll never know that now will we??
I guess that's where we'll disagree Tooth, cause I can't recall MANY a bad day that LA had in the TdF. If you breakdown his 7 Tours, each 21 days, or 147 days in total, I can only recall 2 days in which he had a "bad" day (his ride up the Col de Joux Plane in 2000, where he bonked, and his severe dehydration where he lost a minute to Jan Ullrich in a ITT in 2003). And even on those "bad" days he finished second in the ITT and lost only 2 minutes on the finish on the Joux Plane. Physiologically, those efforts for a "bonking" person are pretty remarkable?
Not saying it's impossible, but maybe improbable.
In regard to Landis losing so much time and then recovering the next day...I don't think he bonked in the physiological terms with which we would associate. He stated afterwards that he didn't feel well the entire day. His rivals never tested him until the final climb, where it became obvious that he was riding like crap. Like LA, Landis had the poker face on. Imagine how far he would've been behind had they attacked earlier.
So when someone has a "bad" day and it isn't a true bonk, how much does the body use up and can it recover and post a better effort the next day. I say it can happen, LA recovered from his, so why couldn't Landis? I've recovered from shitty efforts or races and done better the next day.
Now that said, I think the only reasons Landis gained so much time was because of the energy his rivals expended the days earlier and the trepidation in their minds to follow his attack so early. How many people would say, let's let the crazy MF go, who's gonna attack on the first of 5 climbs...he'll come back to us. I would have, afterall who and how many front runners, besides a Prefontaine, ever had enough balls to run in front all day long (epecially for 5 hours plus)? Heck you and Zip even had enough sense to let the gruppo catch back up before gearing it back up again.
thanks Oude G - series should be very interesting
what's always bothered me (and why I think they're all juiced a little) is that it's never really reported what kind of medical training & recovery treatments they do get - (breathing into a tube in a wind tunnel doesn't tell the story at all as I'd like to know what goes on in motor home, on the massage table and in the hotel room ...)
it's as though they're afraid of the truth because it puts all of them in the gray area of legal vs doping ... (or beyond) ... ie needles, fluids, pills, etc (legal or other)
Lemond = Whiny. He's jealous of OBL's financial success.
I think its more than his financial sucess...i think Lemond feels slighted by the public at large. There are many more cyclists on the road simply because of LA, his story and his success. And because of his story, many see him as the only American cycling success. Many fans are LA fans and not fans of cycling in general and therefore don't get into the history.
Need proof, you need only look at the TV drop of this year's Tdf by the American public...down 52%. Lance fans not cycling fans.
Well, maybe Lance is feeling now what Lemond has been feeling. He's yesterday's news. Floyd is today's story -- and he's a good one. Lemond, Armstrong, now Landis -- they're all important in the history of American cycling. But Floyd is still writing his story.
Granny, I am only recounting the numerous times Lance reported suffering i.e. when Heras was pulling away from him, he claimed he suffered the entire 03 Tour, the Doctor outside the bus telling us that Lance had a stomach virus, hip out of alignment, etc.
I might be wrong but I thought that Landis first pushed off from questions about eating enough and he wrote it off to just a "bad day" later to then say he didn't eat enough? Are you actually going to tell me that a man who has wattage of his farts measured doens't know how to fuel? Bullshit.
You don't think losing 10 minutes is bonking? It's Bonk with a capital B. He cracked and cracked hard. He could barely turn the crank. A shitty race is one thing, to be cracking that hard and icing the field the next day is well, "extraterestial" (sp) to quote someone we all hate.
Nothing pains me more than to have to be a skeptic particularily of someone who's from a town 30 miles from me.
I was however a staunch supporter of Tyler's and vowed that there was no way that he could make the incredulous statements about endangering his wife, etc. Well, we all know where we landed on that deal.
Rider said it best, we simply don't know. It's the skunkworks through and through.
I do however agree with your and 03's contention on American cyclists. Regardless of what comes out or will never come out, the history will never change. And as of right now, that history is still being written. Clean or dirty, it's inked.
Tooth, I think you made my point about LA...he bonked greatly twice and suffered (from his accounting) immeasurably yet in each instance he didn't lose significant time and recovered perfectly for the following day's stage (even winning many of those).
As far as Floyd, I'm not suggesting that he didn't crack. But what I suggested is that he was having a bad day from the start, so would you call it a "bonk" if he was attacked early on and lost say like 30-40 minutes rather than the ten he ultimately lost. Believe me when I say I know what bonking feels like...you feel good then you don't. So what would you call it if you didn't feel well at the start and it only materialized when you were put under effort? I'm not sure. I'd think maybe there was something else at play and therefore would offer a plausible explanation as to why he recovered the way he did.
I agree with all in that we'll never know who did or who didn't. I love baseball, a sport by which numbers are sacred, and now everything has been tainted. The only respectful thing about cycling is that governments and world agencies are trying to clean it up. But like everyone says, the science to catch the cheat is really behind the science that's being developed to cheat (sadly it always has been as I can recount numerous female Eastern Block athletes who frankly looked male)
Nice first entry Newbie.
The long and short is that at the end of the day Floyd has shown that he is a leader through and through. There is simply no questioning his mental fortitude and seemingly endless threshold for pain. Knowing these tough Mennonites as well as we do, we know that are cut from a very unique cloth.
I promise I'm done lamenting about the most recent doping scandal. As I've shared with Newbie, this time it was somewhat personal for me as I have, for the first time, lost faith in the entire system and some athletes I admired very much. Like all things, it's life and we move on.
Here's to the great sport that we all participate and here's to the great network of comrades it creates!
Stay pumped,
Tooth
(well you know what I mean)
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